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You are here: Greater Things > God > Face to Face > Beholding Jesus; Head Honcho

Beholding God Face to Face -- Follow-up Dialogue

The following is the second in a series that is indexed at "Seeing God Face to Face."  This dialogue follows from a previous correspondence.

Page Contents:
Keith Thomas on Seeing Jesus
Sterling on 'Head Honcho'Follow-up Comment by Jon Hess

 

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Keith Thomas on Seeing Jesus

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas, Keith (NTO)" <Keith.Thomas@pacificorp.com>
To: "'Sterling D. Allan'" <sterlingda@greaterthings.com>
Cc: "'Jon Hess'" <jon_hess@albertsons.com>; "'Bruce Haycock'" <haycobb@thiokol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 10:32 AM
Subject: RE: Beholding God Face to Face

Sterling !!! My heart be still, thank you for helping me understand that you do understand. I would like to discuss only one subject with you that we may grow together. All of what you said, except this one issue was very very beautiful, thanks again.

The one subject is the "Head Honcho" this I must ponder !!!

First let me be candid with you, and for your purpose of Understanding my being vague about my Face to Face. Yet you should (with all that I have observed about you know this). "whether in the flesh or in the spirit I could not tell any difference" and we (Jesus and I) spoke together as one man may speaks to another, and by this, most all my mortal foundations did crumble, (and at first it was hard). I know where you are I have been there, and there is nothing wrong with where each individual is !!!! and there is nothing wrong that an individual has not had the same experience as someone else, neither does it make them less, or greater...

You say I am missing the point. Brother Ill tell you, it was "EASIER" when I was !!!. From listening and reading the things you have said, and have been there myself, those experiences have given me greater understanding and compassion. many times the Savior would bring me to a realization of something, (and believe you me I was not prepared to hear it or believe it).... Yet with his love and patience and stories, line up line (if you will), It bore truth to me!!! Just one such experience for me was this:

After attending the Temple every possible day that I could (trying hard to do all things I thought I was commanded to do). Fasting and Praying for days, doing this over and over and over again. pleading and asking. And you have to understand, that which you hold onto the tightest is where it will begin. the voice of the Lord said to me "Remove you Garments" --- yea right who is this really, I said. but I knew the voice and after many days of complaining, and resisting, I removed my garments... Now to me this was the Worst, to be asked of me, I worked very hard for these Church Blessings. and I put all my faith and trust in them. After much fear and trembling I decided to Put them back on (surely I must have been deceived). as I opened my drawer and reached for the Garment, to my amazement my drawer was full of moths and they were eating the garments fast enough for me to observe there disappearance. I got it !!! Later that night I had a vision/Dream: and it was about Dumbo the elephant and his trusted companion the mouse. Dumbo was high on the platform ready to fly but he didn't believe he could fly so the mouse gave him a magic feather and said this could make you fly. and so with faith if the feather Dumbo spread his ears and did fly. I got it !!! Dumbo could always fly he really didn't need the feather, yet for a time he did. but the gift that he had he always had !!!

for me, I got it !!! there needs be nothing bestowed on the head of man unless he believes in the first lie, and the answer to the first lie is this -- "ADAM WHO TOLD YOU, YOU WERE NAKED". it is the fear of man that tells him he is lacking, but again this fear of lacking brings about a great experience !!!!

words are the worst form of communication, so all I tell you are only words, yet feelings, and experience are the greatest communication God has for us. Many will deny there fallings and experience and put their trust in the so called "Written Word". Yet if that is the extent of their experience and feelings, they can do nothing else, so they continue to deny the previous!!! as did I...

This was the begging of the End for me. The end of the yoke and bondage of that Jesus refers to.

Now from here we Render all that is Caesars unto Caesars. All that belongs to Man unto Man. we leave the world behind for a time, for a greater understanding of why the world is what it is !!!! This includes Scripture --- are you willing to go further ? this does not mean you are not you. I invite you to just observe !!!!!

love and light
keith

 

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Sterling on 'Head Honcho'

Keith, as I reply, first I would like to make another observation regarding the statement, "seek the face of God."  Think of the scripture-based lyrics referring to the mighty change of heart : "have you received His image in your countenance; does the light of Christ shine in your eyes?"  In this sense, 'seeking the face of God' takes on the meaning of seeking to have his image in our countenance.  This may be a little play on words, but I think it is entirely appropriate.

While I'm sounding like Bruce R. McConkie or Dallin H. Oaks, let me say too that doctrinally, I believe the most general meaning conveyed in the idea of seeking the face of God has as its antecedent the Savior, Jesus Christ.  He is the one whose face we seek to behold, and who will manifest himself to us in his own time and in his own way.

From what I gather in your comment to me, you have had this experience.  I know of several others, both living as well as figures from the past, who claim to have had this experience while yet in mortality.  While I have beheld him with an eye of faith, I have not yet had the privilege of beholding him in the flesh and embracing him in my arms.  It is that experience for which I yearn.  I do believe, though, that when a community of Zion is built, embracing one another will not be far removed from the same joyous outpouring of love that one experiences when in the enfolding arms of the Savior of mankind, for his love will be extant in Zion.

In this fallen world, beholding him while yet in the flesh is a rare experience, so sacred and glorious that often those who are so blessed as to have it don't share it, especially not openly to the world.  Still, others are permitted to share it for the sake of increasing faith in this promise.   When the city of Zion is established on the earth, I believe everyone who walks the streets of that city will have had this experience, for the Savior himself will be in their midst, and will openly and regularly walk amongst them in person.

While beholding him in the flesh might be rare in this present world, from what I gather from the various near death experiences (should be called 'death and back' experiences) I've read, it is he who most people behold when they pass from mortality on to the spirit world, fulfilling the statement of Alma saying that all men, when they pass from mortality, return to that God who gave them breath.  As part of that experience, they see their life in review, with him by their side, being able to instantaneously behold every one of their experiences in the context of the unconditional love and unsurpassed wisdom emanating from him.  It is, from what I can gather, a day of judgment for that person as they pass from this life to the spirit world.  Though painful, it is also a sublimely holy and uplifting experience.

A higher aspect of seeking the face of God, as I see it, involves being introduced to the Father (&Mother) by the Son, Jesus Christ.  According to Lance Richardson's death and back experience, few people even think to ask for this opportunity, and fewer still actually desire it, apparently because of a feeling of unworthiness or unpreparedness.  It is not an 'automatic' gift like the one given those who die and go to the light.

This experience seems far more shrouded in mystery than the appearance of the Son.  But I do believe that this experience is available in mortality as well to those who seek it.

I would imagine that part of this experience entails being given a full view of the entire plan of salvation, from eons past to eons in the future.  It would also entail being told about how he(&she) came to be, and who they answer to -- the grandfather God, so to speak, and so on.  But a full understanding of that level of existence would be as useful to us here as a snail learning about calculus.  In that context, there is no such thing as a head honcho, for there is no beginning or 'highest.'

But there is a meaning of 'head honcho' that does have relevance here and now.  What comes to mind in this context of speaking of the Father is something I came across this morning when browsing through my archive of correspondence with you.

"Have you ever thought it possible that Jesus leads you to the Father [...] --- now brace yourself <grin> and he introduces you to You !?!?!?. You being the Creator , Father of all that You are, by Your choices."

I think you nailed it.  Hence my reply to you :

The 'head honcho' for each person is his or her own self.

We are each masters of our own destiny.

Nothing is more important to us or has more power than what we ourselves decide.

The greatest gift of God to us is our agency, and he honors that above all.  He will never cross that, though he certainly enforces it -- bringing about the deserved consequences of our choices, but answering with abundant mercy when we turn to him with broken heart and contrite spirit for deliverance from stupid things we have done.  Still, through it all, it is our core agency that governs our life.  God provides the environment, and we choose what we will do with it to generate the outcome.  He offers his resources and his power as tools to facilitate our quest.  Likewise, Satan is more than happy to offer his resources and power.  Where we turn, and which way we go, is up to us.  We are our own 'head honcho.'

As for joy and fulfillment : that is only attainable to the extent that we become one with the body of Christ, which entails other individuals seeking the face of God.  Godhood, or godliness, is not something we do in a vacuum or on an island unto ourselves.  It is about helping the whole move forward in their progression.  It is about seeking harmony and oneness with others who are dedicated to this cause  Greater strength and and joy are to be found in working unitedly with others toward a common end, including the Savior and the great men and women of days gone by who labor with us from beyond the veil.  This is the society of the church of the Firstborn.

You will note in the wording of Doctrine and Covenants 88:5 that the 'Firstborn' is elaborated to be "even of God the Father."  This is not the church of Jesus Christ, which is for the fellowship of those who have received the mighty change of heart, taking them from fallen, carnal, telestial man, to the terestrial level of walking the path of discipleship until they overcome all things, which is the celestial level.  The church of the Firstborn is the celestial level.  The future city of the New Jerusalem here in America that the city of Enoch will come down to meet, where heaven and earth come together, will be a celestial city -- a community of the church of the Firstborn.  And while they will find great felicity within the borders of that city, their ministry will not be confined there, but will spread to all the earth administering the kingdom of God in righteousness for the blessing of all mankind.  They will be the ones who govern in God's global government that will reign supreme when Satan's government has been destroyed by the consequences of its own corruption.  It is the stone cut out of the mountains without hands that fills the whole earth.

It is that stone of the Father that the current so-called 'people of God' -- the LDS Church/Mormons in particular, and Christians in General -- are as a body (though not always individually) rejecting, even as the Jews rejected the stone of Jesus Christ.  It is from among them that a remnant arises who will eventually embrace and make that stone the headstone of their corner.

Speaking of this remnant who arise to redeem Zion, I believe that there are among them those who through faithfulness in a previous existence(s), overcame all things and inherited all things, sitting on the right hand of God; but who chose to return to mortality here at this time not for their own sakes but for the sake of the progression of mankind, to help the family of man move forward.  These individuals could be thought of as God in the flesh in a more full sense than what was mentioned earlier regarding how each individual has the potential latent within them to eventually rise to godhood -- meaning the full manifestation of godliness and all its attributes of perfection.  So in this sense, there are, literally, walking among us, individuals whose identity may be veiled to us (and even them) now, who are after the order of 'God.'  When we look upon them, we are seeing the face of God.  And because these individuals come in a wide variety of stations in life, you never know when you might be talking to one.  Hence, the statement 'whatsoever ye do unto one of the least of these ye do it unto me,' can have literal meaning at times.  So seeing the face of God in our fellowman can actually be a literal thing.

Along these lines, I also believe, as I have stated before, that the Father (&Mother) him(&her)self come down among mankind during this period of the gentiles' rejection of the stone of Israel, so their rejection becomes a very literal thing, just as was the Jews' rejection of Christ, bringing about the atonement which enables mankind to progress from the telestial, carnal state, to the terestrial.  And because they too are veiled in the flesh, they too appear outwardly as any other man or woman.  In fact, in the spirit of the 'mystic symbol' featured at the top of each page on my website divine symbol (I H /), they appear as fallen man to make their disguise yet more complete and the lesson more profound.  You never know when it is their face you see in the crowd, for they look like everyman or everywoman -- for indeed that is who they represent.  Yet another reason to have more reverence for our fellowmen.  Yet another reason why beholding the face of our fellowman is to behold the face of God.

After they have been marred as foreordained in the wisdom of God, even as the crucifixion was foreordained, a miraculous deliverance will accompany their healing, as well as a miraculous transformation of the people of God as they are initiated as a body into the church of the Firstborn.  Then the veil will be rent, and not only will the Father&Mother be seen as they really are, but each individual will be seen as they are -- part of the body of Christ, many of them already having attained to the level of full godliness, and all of them having the full potential within them to attain the fullness of Godhood.  Then we will see not only face to face, but eye to eye.  With such a vision, Satan can have no more power over the hearts of the children of men, but a reign of unsurpassed peace and prosperity will ensue, lasting for 1,000 years.

That will be the inaugural event for the city of the News Jerusalem.  I believe it will take place at Adam On Diahman, and its timing will be just days following the triumphal deliverance of the Lord's people at a time of their darkest trial following the reign of the beast.  It will be to them what Pentecost was to the Christians -- only on the next quantum forward in the progression of God's people -- the church of the Firstborn, a celestial church, where men and angels and even God him(&her)self comingle in blissful peace and everlasting felicity.  That will be the headquarters of Zion that will eventually fill the whole earth.  The 'one shephard' (or 'head honcho' in our context) of that blessed theocracy will not be composed of just one person, but of a large quorum of individuals who are one.  144,000 is the number given in the scriptures.

That's how I see it anyway.

That's the vision that drives me forward.  That's the 'face of God' for which I seek.  I believe it will be achieved in our lifetimes, and it will be glorious beyond description.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan (head honcho for myself, and part of the head honcho team preparing for the city of Zion)
www.greaterthings.com
March 16, 2001

p.s. Speaking of neighbors, just now after completing the above, I went out to my living room where my mother-in-law, Susan Carter was sitting, and discovered that John Hess lives here in Manti and drives up and down our road quite frequently because his horses are near here.  Though I've heard of him for years, and may have even talked to him on the phone once several years ago, I don't know that I've ever men him in person.  But because he is always driving by, surely I've seen his face but thought I was just seeing another person from town.  He is, after all, just another person from town.

Part III will probably be a discussion based on a 2.5-hour phone call I had with Jon Hess this evening in which he spoke of how easy it really is to see Jesus and have regular communion with him.  It may just be the posting of some follow-up compilations that Jon said he would send perhaps on Monday evening.

Part III: Believing as a Child - Jon Hess describes the events leading up to when he finally saw the Lord, and some of the interactions he has had since.  (March 20, 2001)

 

Page posted on March 15, 16, 2001
Last updated on November 04, 2007

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