The Coming of Jesus Christ in Glory -- A Reply

Click here to read J.J.'s original post to which the follow is a reply.

I imagine you all have been somewhat curious as to what my response would be to J.J.'s post on the Coming of Jesus Christ in Glory.

There are, of course, some very interesting perspectives that he brings forth. However, I am far from being convinced of his main point. Several of his arguments, though interesting in and of themselves, are, in my opinion, taken too far. Also, it seems to me that there are still a whole slew of Second Coming prophecies for which he has not accounted. Nevertheless, while I still have some strong reservations, I will concede that he has me considering some major possibilities here that I have never considered before. My mind is open for change, so long as I have sufficient reason: intellectual and spiritual. Painful though they may be sometimes, I love major paradigm shifts.

So in the spirit of coming to sufficient reason to break through on this, I will go through J.J.'s post on "The Coming in Glory" and indicate where questions yet remain and where and why I disagree with his conclusions.

Before I proceed, though, let me preface my remarks by reminding you that in J.J.'s "mystery of Christ" post I was with him just about all the way until he got to the end. The following post is his elaboration of that ending, so my disagreement at every turn may come across as a wholesale disagreement of the entire paradigm he presents of the "Mystery of Christ." That is not the case. I will elaborate at the end of this post.

J.J.'s comments are offset by the ">"

> It sounds like Sterling was gliding right along through my latest
> dissertation

Yes, I must say that the last one, on "The Mystery of Christ and his Coming," had a power in the writing that was not really there in the most recent post.

<snip>

> The first point I would like to make is that when the Jews were awaiting
> the first coming of the Messiah they made the same mistake that the
> religious world makes today. They were expecting him to show up in great
> glory, probably in the clouds of heaven, and destroy all their enemies and
> establish the kingdom of God

Before I explain why I disagree with this premise, let me say that what I am about to say could be considered a first or second primary theme of my 1000-some page website. I am not speaking off the cuff here, but have volumes of supportive material for this.

My premise is that the Jews were looking for what amounts to the second coming and got the first, whereas the Christians/Mormons are focused on the first coming while they are going to get the second.

The first was a spiritual advent, dealing with individual spiritual victory. The second is going to be a temporal advent, dealing with societal victory, establishing a government of God.

These two factors, the spiritual and temporal, the gospel and the government of God, are like man and wife in how they are designed to work hand in hand.

The Jews looked beyond the mark by wanting a temporal government, and expecting their Messiah to deliver them from temporal captivity. The Christians today look beyond the mark by focusing on the spiritual deliverance of the first coming and neglecting the government of God in this day. By default they (speaking of the mainstream, not the outcasts) usually end up supporting Satan's government that is being built up which is based on coercion (Socialism) rather than freedom. A big ooops.

So to bring this back to what J.J. is saying, the Jews were not wrong in their reading of prophecy of a future temporal deliverance and establishment of a literal kingdom. That is what we are going to get. And because Christians/Mormons are focused on the first coming and neglect to understand the ramifications of the second, they are going to reject the mission of Messiah like the Jews rejected him in the first advent.

This is designed by God to work for the salvation of all, in the strange math that through rejection comes redemption. Though they are going to come under subjection of a world tyranny because of their lack of vigilance, a humbled remnant is going to be delivered, and the kingdom of God is going to be established no more to be thrown down -- Daniel 7, Rev. 13 stuff.

So not only do I disagree with J.J.'s statement, I adamantly disagree with it, for it plays into the very mindset of looking beyond the mark that causes people to miss the issues that they need to be vigilant toward.

There is coming a very real political deliverance, and there are going to be manifestations of great power in protecting and delivering the Lord's people who would otherwise be annihilated by the Beastly forces that will be arrayed against them -- making Hitler look like kindergarten.

The reason this deliverance will be necessary will be because we have allowed this beast -- this secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all land, nations, and countries -- to get above us because of our lack of vigilance, and even because of our active participating in building it up (using "us" in a very generic "we" sense).

> through the use of great fear and force. This
> Messiah would be so powerful that all would quake in their boots and none
> would dream of going against him.

Though some in very beginning stages of understanding might interpret the scriptures this way, my experience is that most Christians/Mormons do not look at Christ to be a tyrant like figure. The terror of the purging destructions will be an element of the wicked destroying the wicked, the sword of their own hands falling upon their own heads -- consequences that God allows to play themselves out because they do not repent.

J.J. is right in portraying that God in these last days will not use means of force to get people to comply. He did use a strong arm of persuasion with the children of Israel at the time of Moses because they were on such a level (childhood in the spiritual parallel between individuals and the progression of the house of Israel through time).

> Does not this view of a Messiah sound a lot like John's description of the
> Beast:
>
> Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet
> were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the
> dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 13:3 And I
> saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was
> healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 13:4 And they
> worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
> Rev and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who
> is able to make war with him?
> Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to
> overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and
> nations.
> Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names
> are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation
> of the world.
> Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
> Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from
> heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

I agree with J.J.'s insinuation that God would not employ these techniques. And he makes a good point in comparing these so as to exaggerate the point for emphasis.

As I understand the prophesied God's making bare his arm, it will include defensive tactics where the weapons of the enemy will not work against the Lord's people. Missiles fired will not penetrate, for example. Some prophecies even describe the people of God walking as it were through the fire unscathed, like Shadrack, Meshak, and Abednego. This lack of ability to prevail against this remnant of the lord will at first infuriate the Beast, causing it to unleash ever more violent tactics, none of which will prevail, until finally they are destroyed by the very conflagrations they intended to destroy God's people with. The story of this deliverance will strike a fear into anyone whose heart is not upright, so that only the pure in heart will dare pilgrimage to the New Jerusalem which will then begin to be constructed in the heart of North America.

I apologize to those of you who do not have an LDS background and may be scratching your heads saying "where is Sterling coming up with all of this." Those with an LDS background are familiar with these prophecies. There are scores of multiple witnesses for each of the above points.

So what I'm saying in connection with J.J.'s statement is that though he makes a correct point here, he is not helping me (and others like me) follow his line of reasoning by incorrectly assuming that this is how we perceive the "coming in glory."

> This description of the Beast fits very well with the religious world's
> current belief of how Jesus will impact the world when he comes in glory.

Good point, but not helpful for those like me who already knew better than that.

> Here is what the believers expect in Jesus that fits John's description of
> the antichrist.

Satan has always counterfeited Christ. To say that Christ will not have a parallel, righteous, manifestation of each of these points is incorrect. I will illustrate with each of the points he makes in the following list.

> (1) He will have great power and authority.

"power" and "authority" are legitimate terms of relevance for both light and for darkness, though they have very different meanings in each context.

> (2) He will be so powerful that none can make war with him

This is only temporarily true of Satan, while eternally true with God. "He that builds on this rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against them" is the promise of the gospel for those who establish themselves on the rock of Christ.

> (3) People will worship him

The righteous worship God, the wicked worship Satan. Eventually (at the conclusion of the purging destructions -- the wicked destroying the wicked and the righteous being preserved by the power of God), "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess (voluntarily) that Jesus is the Christ."

> (4) Power will be given him over all nations

Though Satan's dominion is prevalent now, eventually dominion shall be giving to our God and his Christ (and all the saints who reign with him as Christ).

> (5) He will do great wonders and make fire to come down - a possible
> description of a fiery appearance in glory

True also of God and his servants. See Rev. 11 regarding the two prophets in Jerusalem. God caused fire to rain down on Sodam and Gomorrah.

> This antichrist messiah was the illusion that the Jews looked for 2000
> years ago and now the world awaits again for the appearance of one with> great power and authority to destroy the wicked and save the righteous. Of
> course, the righteous are always those who believe the same way we do.

A good point, but again, it does not help people like me who already know better.

> Instead of a booming destructive Messiah what was given to the Jews?
>
> The answer: A kind gentle man who taught: "For the Son of man is not come
> to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56

Who also said in another context, "I came not to bring peace, but the sword" speaking of how we must be willing to stand for truth even when it means risking our very lives when faced with a valley of decision.

> If he came the first time to not destroy, but to save, do you think his
> mission statement will be that much different this time? I don't think so.

Wrong. The first and second comings have very different purposes and tactics, though they are one in their combined effect. He's not going to repeat the first coming, for that has already happened. This second advent is going to look much more like what the Jews were anticipating and which the Christians have ruled out (as illustrated here by J.J.) because of the mistake of the Jews.

> Let me repeat a prophecy concerning his first coming:

I think J.J. makes an excellent point in the following.

> "And I beheld that he went forth ministering unto the PEOPLE IN POWER AND
> GREAT GLORY." I Nephi 11:28
>
> Now some early seekers could have read that and envisioned Jesus going
> forth upon the land in a blazing chariot dazzling everyone with the
> brightness of his presence.
>
> But instead, how was this prophecy fulfilled?
> Jesus went forth as one of the people and the only ones who saw the "great
> glory" were those who "had eyes to see."
>
> The Jewish leaders saw no great glory at all, but a great disturbance.
>
> Also consider this. How many do you suppose there were who were expecting
> the Messiah to come as he did?

And indeed in the second advent will be equally unexpected and unaccepted

"When I came among my own, no man among you received me. When I called AGAIN [second advent] there was none to answer." (D&C 133:66,67 -- and a bunch of other references from the scriptures, Bible, BofM, etc.)

-- but not entirely for the reason J.J. is stating here.

> I would guess it would have been a very small handful. If John the Baptist
> had not prepared the minds of his little group perhaps the number would
> have been close to zero.
>
> That said let's review the scriptures concerning the clouds of heaven
>
> Here is a popular one:
>
> I Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we
> which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
> them which are asleep.
> I Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
> with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in
> Christ shall rise first:
> I Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
> with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever
> be with the Lord.
>
>
> The religious world is waiting for this scripture to be, but many will be
> astounded to learn that it has already been fulfilled.

While I really enjoy J.J.'s comments which follow (about a remnant who apparently were taken up shortly following the resurrection of Jesus), and agree with the possibility of this being an explanation of one facet of their fulfillment, I do not agree that this implies that there will not yet be a coming in the clouds in glory yet to come in our near future.

Just because he appeared in glory to the Nephites in the American Continent following his resurrection does not mean that his second coming has been accomplished for the world at large.

This instance spoken of below (and this is the first time I've heard of this, and would love to believe that it is true) is on the same level as the appearance to the Nephites.

> Notice the wording - Paul says: "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN unto the
> coming of the Lord..." Then WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught
> up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so
> shall we ever be with the Lord."
>
> Paul was not speaking of a coming which would happen thousands of years
> hence, but of one which would come in his lifetime. Jesus told the church
> "I come quickly..." Surely 2000 years is not quickly.

This phrase "I come quickly" has been the watch word for millennia. It serves two purposes. On an individual level, we (usually) do no know when we are going to die, and could be taken any time, hence we should live each day to the fullest and not procrastinate the day of our repentance. It also speaks of the possibility that the individual who prepares himself can be brought into the presence of God and numbered with the general assembly of the church of the firstborn -- while yet in the flesh. On a societal level, it means that we should ever be vigilant -- for pretty much the same reasons but on a societal scale, including the invitation to prepare the world so that God him(&her)self might reign here personally, the kingdom of heaven coming down to meet the kingdom of God which has been established on earth.

I guess God uses "quickly" the same way he uses "eternal punishment." It is basically to scare the crap out of lazy procrastinators (voluntarily, because the prophecies require faith to be understood or appreciate), while those who move beyond that mode realize that these words have a higher level of meaning.

> These early Saints expected Jesus to come and save them from the great
> persecutions which were forthcoming and because the time was short, and the
> message of Christ had to be spread abroad before he appeared, the early
> leaders thought it best that the saints should not marry, but totally
> dedicate themselves to spreading the word. The injunction to not marry was
> a temporary one due to the circumstances of the time.
>
> This teaching of the early leaders was not without foundation for Jesus
> told his disciples: "Verily I say unto you, There be some (more than one)
> standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man
> coming in his Kingdom." Matt 16:28
>
> These early saints believed that the 144,000 would be a group of Christians
> who would be taken by the Lord.

And each succeeding generation more or less has thought that they might be the generation in which these things would be fulfilled, and hence tried to bring their lives into conformity with the teachings of God. The early Mormon church is another example of a group of people who thought the coming of the Lord was imminent, within just a few years. You can imaging that this was not hard to believe considering the intense persecutions they had to endure -- their Armageddon as it were.

> Actually, there is some historical evidence that such a saving event did
> happen and it was recorded by none other than the respected historian,
> Josephus. He recorded a second coming of Christ on May 30, 73 AD:
>
> "Besides these, a few days after the feast, on the one and twentieth day of
> the month -Artemisius, a certain marvelous and incredible phenomenon
> appeared. I suppose what I am going to tell would seem a fable, were it not
> related by those who saw it, and were not the sad events that followed it
> deserving of such signs. Before sunset chariots were seen in the air, and> troops of soldiers in their armour running about among the clouds.
> Moreover, at the feast which is called Pentecost, as the priests were going
> by night into the inner temple, as was their custom, to perform their
> sacred ministrations, they said that first they felt a quaking, and heard a
> great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a multitude saying,
> Let us remove hence." The Jewish War, Book 6, page 106, Chapter 5, section
> 3.
>
> This sounds like an early UFO sighting,

I seriously doubt it. God has more power (understanding of the laws of physics) than needing to use UFO's to take people up to the city of Enoch as in the days of Melchizedek.

> but we also have a "multitude" that
> was removed. Was this Christ appearing with his hierarchy, or Kingdom, as
> he promised? After all Paul told the saints: "Ye are come unto mount Sion,
> and unto the city of the living God, and the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an
> innumerable company of angels. To the general assembly and the church of
> the firstborn which are written in heaven..." Heb 12:22-23

While this may be one possible application of this scripture, the more broad application is for each individual regardless of when or where they are born.

> Did members of the church on the earth join with the "church of the
> firstborn" in heaven? Or is it possible that they were merely transported
> to a different area for safety? Or did they join Christ and his hierarchy
> for a period of time?
>
> Whatever the case we can see that a fairly literal interpretation was
> applied to Rev 14:4 in that age.

...does not mean that it will not have a more full application in this the fullness of times.

> Another scripture that seems to deal with a glorious coming is from Matthew 24.
>
> I will here repeat some of my writings on this.
>
> To illustrate this and expand on the sign of atomic energy let us go to a
> prediction of Jesus. In Matthew chapter 24 He was speaking of signs that
> would occur before He would come again.
> Here is an important one the Christian world is yet waiting for:

<snip (quoting Matt. 24:27-34>

> Here we learn about The Sign of the Son of Man in "heaven," that will be
> given before the end of the age.> What do you suppose this is and why?
> What generation shall not pass away till all the things mentioned are
> fulfilled?

I really like J.J.'s bringing to light the understanding that the words "Uranium, Heaven, and Uranus" are the same word in Greek. This is very helpful, and his insights on this application are quite good. However, I believe he takes this one too far in how often he applies this meaning.

> Now let's get back to the scripture. The reason we are going over to
> Matthew chapter twenty four is because it sheds additional light on the
> "fire from heaven."
> This chapter tells us about an anti Christ character that was prophesied by
> Daniel. A man of fierce countenance who would try and destroy the holy
> people (the Jews - who were holy to Daniel (Daniel Chapter eight}).

While the Jews are indeed referred to as "the holy people" in scripture, that is not the only people who receive that appellation. The Mormons/Christians in these end times are they which God designates as his (supposed to be) holy people. (The first shall be last and the last shall be first: Jews to the Gentiles at the time of Christ's first coming, and Gentiles to the Jews/Israel -- pending)

Daniel knew this like most all of the other holy prophets of scripture because of the visions he had, even though he lived in the day in which the Jews were yet designated God's (supposed to be) "holy people."

J.J.'s argument here relies on Daniel referring only to the Jews. This is not a valid assumption.

> Who was the man of fierce countenance who tried to destroy the Jews?
> Hitler, of course.

Yes, this is an application of this prophecy, though not an exclusive one or even the most full application.

> And is it not true that if the days of Hitler were not
> shortened the elected Jews would have been completely destroyed just as it
> says in Matthew 24?

True. And I do like the following application. But I do not buy that this is the ULTIMATE fulfillment of this prophecy. Rather, I see this as being a "warm-up" as it were. Before things are through on this planet, there is going to far more than just two nuclear bombs dropped. The nuclear fallout and other cataclysms such as volcanoes will block out the sun. Furthermore, the earth being hurled from its current orbit will have no small visual effect so far as the stars falling from heaven.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were small peanuts compared to what is slated to come on this planet.

I am not stating this in a fatalistic way, for I sincerely believe that the severity of destructions to come will be a function of how much the people repent or not. I'm saying that this is what we have breathing down our necks at the current time. These are the consequences that now await us unless we turn them away -- which is my primary motivation.

> Now let us read verse 29-30:
> Matt 24:29 IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
> darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall
> from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 24:30 And then
> shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the
> tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the
> clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
>
> The key to understanding this scripture is that the word heaven comes from
> the Greek OURANOS, the exact same word from which uranium is derived. It
> is also interesting that the name of the planet Uranus which rules the
> coming Age of Aquarius comes from the same word.
>
> Now substitute again the word uranium for "heaven" and read the verses
> again. Do we now understand why this sign would make all the people of the
> earth "mourn?"

That is not how I read that scripture. The mourning happens, then the glorious appearance happens -- like labor before birth, like the Nephites' destructions followed by the appearance of Jesus Christ descending from heaven to a significant number of people assembled about the temple.

> Remember Jesus was using language of 2000 years ago to
> describe this future event. Nevertheless, it is amazing how accurate he
> was. You might want to dust off that Bible and read all of chapter 24 of
> Matthew. Tell us what you see now...

A partial fulfillment, a sort of "pre-show" foretaste of what is yet to come.

> There seems to be some difficulty in seeing the uranium for heaven. First
> remember that this is not a black and white thing. One must use the
> intuition to see where the play on words was an intention of the Spirit.
> For instance we wouldn't normally pray to Our Father in Uranium (heaven)
> even though God is in all things including uranium.
> It is not coincidence, however that the word "heaven" and "uranium" are so
> closely linked. Another interesting word from the same Greek origin is the
> planet "Uranus." Now the interesting thing about Uranus is that it rules
> Aquarius and what new age is it we are passing into?
> So let us look at these three phrases:> Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven
> Sign of the Son of Man in Uranium
> Sign of the Son of Man in Uranus.
>
> All of these are full of meaning.
> Let's clarify an important point. The sign of the Son of Man is not the
> actual Second Coming but a great sign that will appear as a sign that the
> coming of Christ is at hand.

In the application you are making here, that is true, but in the this prophecy if fulfilled in its fullness, it refers to the actual appearing of the Son of Man coming down from heaven.

> Let me first quote a previous article illustrating the correspondence
> between uranium and the resurrection of Christ:
> "The Christ represented the positive nucleus of the atom. His crucifixion
> and burial represented the fall of spiritual matter into a state where
> illusion and death becomes a real concern. In this state the central sun
> (Son) of the atom has it's great light hidden by a veil of negative energy
> that becomes a tomb hiding a great reality.

This is an interesting analogy -- illustrating that all things testify of Christ -- but it is a failing of logic to take this the next step and apply it as the only fulfillment of the prophecy.

> Atoms evolve similar to humans in that as they progress they add seven
> chakras or electron layers. When the seventh becomes active the atom
> becomes radioactive and may even glow in the dark as does radium.

J.J. is a bit off on his science here. Go to your High School/College text book and you will see that all elements can have a radioactive form, beginning with Hydrogen which has involves just the first electron shell. Deuterium, a radioactive form of Hydrogen, is a very common tool in scientific research. I used it as a graduate student at BYU.

>The
> radioactive human will also shine like the sun during certain initiations as
> Jesus did on the Mount of transfiguration.

This explanation is probably as lacking spiritually as it is scientifically. There are probably other factors at play here.

> Finally when the atom and the human complete their evolution the dark tomb
> of matter can no longer hold them and that which seemed to be dead splits
> the tomb of death in two and the pure spiritual energy escapes. In the case
> of the atom a certain percentage is translated into pure energy or spirit
> and in the case of the Christ the inner life stands revealed as pure spirit
> and is no longer limited by physical restrictions.">
> Thus we see that the splitting of uranium is a sign of the resurrection of
> the Son of man. It also tells us how the second beast (the U.S.) "made fire
> to come down out of heaven in the sight of men," for when we substitute
> heaven for uranium this begins to make sense.

I agree that the U.S. is part of the Beast, and I agree that this factor mentioned by J.J. may be a small part of that, but that the main/crucial reason is because at present they (the insiders who call the shots among the hot shots of America) are the main sponsors of international Socialism and the building up of the "New World Order."

> In this chapter (Matt 24) Jesus talks about the abominable person who
> causes desolation. He is quoting here from the book of Daniel and Daniel
> talked about this antichrist who would attempt to destroy the Holy people.
> To Daniel the holy people were his people, the Jews.

See above note about Daniel knowing that the latter-day gentiles, e.g. Mormons/Christians, would be considered the "holy people" of this time in preparing for the second advent of the Lord.

> There is only one time in history that an antichrist attempted to
> completely destroy the Jews and that was in Hitler's Germany.

I'm not really strong on history, but there certainly have been many others who have sought to annihilate the Jews, including the Soviet Union to a certain extent.

> Now someone
> asked about the other tribulations and persecutions mentioned in the Book
> of Revelation. John's book here concentrates more on the Christian
> persecutions, but in Matthew 24 Jesus is talking about the Jewish people as
> evidenced by the reference to Daniel.

Not necessarily.

> Keeping this in mind let's look a little deeper:
> "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened
> (or "obscure"), and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
> fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." Matt 24:29
> Men have been perplexed by this scripture for two thousand years and every
> time there has been an eclipse, or the moon is obscured, or we have a
> meteor shower, there are those who arise and tell us that Jesus is coming.
> The key to the meaning of the verse is in the Greek word for "heaven" which
> is OURANOS. The element Uranium was named after this as we have said. For
> proof one merely has to check any good dictionary and it will trace uranium
> to OURANOS.
>
> What happens when the powers of Uranium are shaken???> The atomic Bomb. This makes much more sense than the thought that the very
> powers of God in heaven will be shaken.
> Now we can read in the verse in a totally different light;

Again, I agree that this is A valid application, but it is not THE ultimate application, for that is yet to transpire, and it will leave no question as to its having been fulfilled.

> "Immediately after the tribulation of those days (the defeat of Hitler who
> was destroying the Jews) shall the sun be darkened (the blast is so bright
> it obscures the sun),

Try the sun's light being significantly dimmed by nuclear winter and volcanic debris and other conflagrations and dust from destructions.

> and the moon shall not give her light (a victim
> cannot even see the moon),

The sun barely shines through, the moon not at all.

> and the stars shall fall from heaven (stars
> shall fly from uranium - it will be very sensational and bright),

The movement of the earth will be so drastic that it will appear that the stars are moving, falling. This could also be depicting meteor showers or even comets.

> and the
> powers of heaven shall be shaken" (how the atomic blast works).

Another prophet says the earth shall "reel to and fro like a drunkard." That's not just one Nagasaki, but depicts something more like a pole reversal and land masses coming back together from having been separated in the days of Peleg.

> It is interesting how almost "immediately" after the extermination of the
> Jews ended this great sign was given just as predicted.
>
> Now we can understand the mystery of the next verse: "And then shall appear
> the sign of the Son of man in heaven (the atomic bomb was the sign that the
> coming of Christ is sure and fairly soon): and then shall all the tribes of
> the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
> heaven with power and great glory." Matt 24:30

I maintain that this is yet to happen and will completely pale what you have described in comparison.

> Many read this verse and think that it means that people will see Jesus .'
> - coming and mourn because of their sins, but notice it says "all" the
> tribes (Greek: races) shall mourn. Surely someone must be happy to see
> Jesus appear.

Again, the mourning precedes the appearance. It is not a result of it.

> The sign is not Jesus at all

Totally false.

> for his appearance will bring happiness and
> peace to many,

True, while for the wicked who have been destroyed prior to that time (because of the consequences of their choices), it will be terrible.

> but the prophecy was fulfilled to the letter when the atomic
> blast went off in Hiroshima. All the races of the entire earth "mourned"
> and began to fear that the fate of Hiroshima may eventually be their own.
> A more accurate description of the atomic bomb cannot be given than:
> "clouds of' heaven with power and great glory."

Again, this application is okay, but it certainly is not THE ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, and actually is a rather lame explanation when presented as though it was (considering all the other scriptures that do not coincide).

> Another description is: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and
> shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
> We must keep in mind that when Matthew wrote this account he had to
> describe an event that was beyond the imagination of man at that time.
> All this sounds like good correspondence, but one is inclined to ask: "Why
> is a dreadful thing like the atomic bomb called "the sign of the Son of
> man? Was he not the Prince of Peace?"
>
> The answer: The splitting of the atom and the releasing of great energy is
> a perfect correspondence to the resurrection of Christ. The life force of
> the atom was released to enter the way of higher evolution just as the tomb
> of the Christ burst opened and released the Son of God. The splitting of
> the tomb of material matter is the one sure sign that the Son of man is the
> Son of God, and the knowledge given to man to split to tomb of the atom is
> the greatest revelation given to man to date. It is a sign that we are not
> far from overcoming death as Christ did.

While I agree that there is a level of application here -- a valid parallel to a certain extent -- that it is a far cry from being sufficient reason to explain away the prophecies coming in clouds in glory of Jesus Christ.

> The power of the atom does not have to be a frightening thing if it is
> understood and used by Israelites. Many fairly intelligent people are
> against any use of atomic power, but the time will come when it will be> used wisely for the benefit of mankind. In addition, many other sources of
> energy will be opened up for us in the New Age and many of the theories of
> Nicola Tesla will be verified.

This is true. My Dad is currently among those on the leading edge of bringing just such a thing about. See www.allanstime.com (in early stages of uploading, as this information is now coming brand new and some is yet not even written down).

> The next verse has the gathering message. We will repeat it again: "And he
> shall send his angels (messengers) with a great sound of a trumpet, and
> they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of
> heaven to the other... This generation shall not pass, till all these
> things be fulfilled." Matt 24:31 34

The Joseph Smith inspired translation of this chapter clarifies this. After the phrase, "for the Son of Man shall come," is inserted the phrase (in caps), "and he shall send his angels BEFORE HIM with the great sound of a trumpet; and they shall gather...."

> The generation that saw the first atomic bomb shall not all pass away until
> the Christ shall again manifest on the earth.
>
> There have been many methods used for predicting the return of Christ, and
> hundreds of dates set. All of them have been wrong. Some time ago I read
> about a small sect in Arizona who bad arrived at the date and they sold all
> their belongings and went up on a hill and waited. Of course, Jesus did not
> swoop them up as expected. After this their undaunted leader discovered a
> three day error in his calculations and they waited again, but to no avail.
> But were they discouraged? Never! They are still expecting Jesus to come
> after them at any minute. The Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses
> and many others have set dates for his appearance and they have all failed.
> On the other hand, when he does appear, he will have to pick a certain day,
> and what if by accident some religious group happened to pick at or around
> that day for their prophecy?, would the Christ decide to take up his abode
> with them and no one else because they chose the lucky day? Most likely
> Christ would find their company so boring and unenlightened he would ignore
> them if at all possible.

I realize you are doing some tongue-in-cheek stuff here, but in seriousness, I don't see the Christ ignoring anyone. I don't think anyone who takes their belief to this extent could be considered boring. I've done things not too remote from what you just described, and I bet several others of your present acquaintances (perhaps including yourself) have don the same. In fact, I'm now recalling a post you wrote to that effect, though I don't remember the details without looking back at what you said.

Perhaps you will recall that my response to that post in which you essential admitted of being burned out in such attempts at preparation. I said that my belief is that it very well could be that such gatherings of people in preparation for the worst has helped send enough energy of sincerity to heaven to actually turn away the destruction for which they were preparing -- the Jonah and Nineveh effect.

> Now we come to another scripture that many have misunderstood. From Acts
> we read about the ascension of Jesus:
>
> "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up;
> and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked
> stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in
> white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up
> into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall
> so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11
>
> People read this and they assume that the time will come that we will look
> to the skies and the whole world at one time will see a bright Jesus in the
> sky descending. No one has yet stopped to explain how both sides of the
> globe could see him at one time, but that's another topic.

The Book of Mormon again comes in handy here, for it explains that when Christ appeared (coming down out of the clouds) to the Nephites following his resurrection that he had other groups of people that he would visit just as he had visited them. Indeed, there are accounts of just such visits all up and down the North and South American continent as well as from Asia. The Hmong (Asian) people who emigrated to the Denver area back in the '70s had such legends (which I heard while living in Boulder as a lad).

Again, I call back to the book I wrote in which I compared the timeline of the Book of Mormon History to the timeline of the House of Israel from beginning to end. The appearance of Christ to the Nephites is a type of what will happen yet again at the Second Coming of the Lord when comes in the clouds in glory. Except that it will be even more spectacular than what the Nephites witnessed -- depending, I suppose, on which group he is appearing to at the time.

> First it is entirely possible that this prophecy had a literal fulfillment
> in 73 AD as recorded by Josephus.

Yes -- A fulfillment, not THE fulfillment.

> But let us suppose it does pertain to our day. Let us look at the
> ingredients: surrounding this event that we are supposed to look for again.
>
> (1) First, he was "received" by a cloud.
> (2) There is no description of any great light that was seen by the whole
> earth
> (3) His ascension was witnessed by probably no more than a couple dozen> people. In an isolated location.

Again, refer to the Book of Mormon account, which is consistent with this.

> If this is a correspondence of his coming then what can we expect?
>
> (1) He will be revealed as one coming forth out of a cloud, or some type of
> veil hiding him from our eyes.

Wait a second. Where did you get the veil part? That's not in the scriptures. Rather, the scriptures say that the heavens shall be "rolled up like a scroll." I know a prophetic lady who has seen this in vision, and she said that it was incredible to behold, and that this description is actually very accurate.

> (2) He will not come with a razzle dazzle of bright light seen by all the
> earth.

Non sequitor. Your conclusion does not follow.

> (3) When he left a couple dozen people witnessed the event. Thus when he
> returns only a small number will at first be aware of his presence.

Crowd by crowd, that is, and each crowd may have anywhere from one to several thousand people.

> Finally we are told that "every eye shall see him." As we explained
> earlier this will happen through television and modern communications.

Actually, this is more consistent with what is prophesied for the anti-Christ, who would have a much easier time getting air time than any servant of God -- especially considering the scripture, "when I called again, there was none to answer." Nevertheless, I am not saying that the pre-glorified/crowned Christ walking among us in the flesh might possibly get some air time as well.

> When he resides with us he will have to use air travel like the rest of us
> and thus he will periodically travel in the clouds and through the air.

Perhaps in the pre-glorified stage in his incarnation among us, though I would have to ask why he would be necessarily limited, for I would think that there will be many, including him who will be able to overcome the obstacle of distance, being like the angels who can pray to God and appear to whomever is expedient.

> Concerning his coming Craig gave a great quote from Joseph Smith:
>
> "The coming of the Messiah among this people will be so natural, that only
> those who see him will know that he has come, but he will come and give his
> laws unto Zion, and minister unto his people. This will not be his coming> in the clouds of heaven..." (Prophecy - Key To The Future, pp. 318-319)

Note the caveat. There is a pre-clouds appearance, at which time he will walk among us like Jesus walked among the Jews prior to his resurrection. He had much more faculty to come and go after his resurrection.

> Let me add that Joseph Smith did not quite understand that the "clouds of
> heaven was represented by the atomic bomb."

-- that this is but one application, you mean.

> Let me end here on a final note of reason.
>
> What is the main difference between the philosophy of the Christ and the
> Adversary?
>
> The answer is free agency. Christ always supports the agency of all men
> and women.

This is true. Agency is the most important principle governing the universe.

> Now suppose he did come with such great power that all who were opposed to
> him were destroyed and those who are left are full of the fear of God and
> would not think of opposing such a powerful being who now is the King of
> the earth?

The key word here is "suppose." In reality, the destructions are a result of consequences of sin for lack of repentance. it is a function of the justice of God that must be met when mercy is not claimed, though it is offered freely as a gift.

> Do you not think this would destroy the agency of man?

>

> It would.

In the way you state it, yes, but this is not the way the scriptures state it. Just because some people misunderstand the scriptures does not give you license to now warp them yourself.

> Now suppose he came as a teacher who uses no compulsory means to draw
> attention to him but all who meet him feel no pressure to relinquish their
> free will and accept him.
>
> Would not this coming as a humble servant rather than one with great power
> and authority fit Jesus's description of a true leader in the kingdom of
> heaven?

This is the way the first phase of his ministry will be -- prior to the crowning (explained further below).
> Matt 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
> Matt 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
> Matt 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that
> shall humble himself shall be exalted.
>
> Mark 9:34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among
> themselves, who should be the greatest.
> Mark 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If
> any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of
> all.
>
> John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 13:14
> If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to
> wash one another's feet.
> John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have
> done to you.
>
> Again and again Jesus taught service to humanity in humility. Does such a
> teaching correlate to one who comes with great personal power and glory to
> the extent that the whole world will quake in their boots?

Your understanding of this is not consistent with the way it will be. The fear spoken of is in the hearts of the wicked as they realize the consequences of their wickedness are being answered upon them. The glory is one of sincere worship of a supreme being who has done so much out of love for the well-being of his children. It is also a glory that so far surpasses the regal mean of any earthly king so as to make the most glorious of men seem puny in comparison. Hence every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.

> As a final witness let me state that the Master himself is aware of this
> list and has an interest in seeing its success. If any desire to seek the
> truth of this matter ask him yourself through prayer or meditation. Can
> you think of a reason he would refuse you? He will bear you witness to the
> basic truth of my words, even though there is bound to be some human error
> in wording on my part.

</end of J.J's post>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I said that at the end I would elaborate on what it is that I agree about J.J.'s paradigm regarding the Christ.

I too believe that Christ will come among us in the flesh. This will apply on several levels. First there are many who are coming into the level of overcoming the world through Christ who are numbered as his and become as he is: Saviors on Mount Zion, hence there are many "Christs" as it were. J.J.'s elaborations on this were fascinating.

Also, like J.J., I believe that THE Messiah will manifest himself in the latter days -- like he did to the Jews, walking in the streets with the people, teaching (riding on airplanes). However, different from J.J., I believe that the latter-day Messiah in the flesh is actually the Father (and Mother) -- who is one with the Son, who came among the Jews.

Also, I believe that said Messiah comes veiled in the flesh not only to others but to him(&her)self, and that he(&she) gradually comes to an awareness of who he(&she) is, and his(&her) mission is unfolded line upon line, not becoming fully manifest until it is fully accomplished.

It is this individual who the Mormons, as the epitome husbandmen for the Lord's people which include the Christians, will reject, as the Jews rejected Jesus. He is the "marred servant" in the latter days who is then healed, as Jesus was among the Jews -- crucified then resurrected on the third day. The two prophets who will be killed in Jerusalem will be another manifestation of this same phenomenon.

It is after this marring that the veil is lifted and the eyes are opened, and people realize what they have done. A nation shall be born in a day, for along with his healing will come a miraculous deliverance of this people who will have come under the brutal oppression of the beast.

As Pentecost followed 50 days on the heels of the Resurrection, shortly after this marring and healing is when the crowing will take place at Adam-On-Diaman (near where the New Jerusalem will then be built). Not only with THE Messiah be crowned, but so will all those who have overcome and come into the stature of Christ, and they will reign with him 1000 years, at which point a final conflict and final cleansing will take place prior to a final rejuvenation of the earth at which point the earth becomes a Celestial Urim and Thummim.

This meeting at Adam-On-Diaman is where the 144,000 will be ordained by angels and sent forth to the earth to gather as many as will to the church of the firstborn -- the heavenly church which will now be on earth in the New Jerusalem city, where no wicked may go, for they will fear this place (the fear being their own wickedness and their lack of ability to manipulate or exercise control over its inhabitants like they are so easily able to do with others).

According to my understanding, it will be a few years after that that the Jews have their showdown in Jerusalem -- their Armageddon. Then Jesus appears to them on the mount, shows them the marks in his hands and in his feet, and they have a collective "oops," complete with a mighty change of heart; and again a nation is born in a day.

Then is when the most massive cataclysms take place, the land masses coming together, the oceans heaving themselves beyond their bounds, the stars falling from heaven, the earth being consumed (purified) in fire. it is then that the righteous are caught up in the cloud so as to be spared from being destroyed.

Then, as the dust settles, this is when the sign of the Son of Man will appear. This is when Jesus Christ descends out of the clouds to show himself to the various groups of people that will remain. And his appearing will be glorious indeed.

That is how I see it. I don't claim to have the picture perfectly clear. Indeed, because of agency, exactly what happens is yet to be seen.

Perhaps now you can see better why I am not even close to being persuaded by J.J.'s alternate explanation of Christ's coming in the clouds in glory.

He's going to have to do better than he has done to explain so many of the scriptures about this event before he will have my attention on this.

In short, as I see it, currently missing from J.J.'s prophetic paradigm is the crowning event of all time. Oops.

Sterling
January 11, 2000

Click here to read J.J.'s reply.