Kudos;
How Does Church Leadership Respond to You?
From: Sidney Hagen
To: <sterlingda@remnantsaints.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:23 AM
Hey Sterling,
Kudos on the article. What kind of repercussions do you get from the LDS church when you criticize
something like Mountain Meadows to them?
Take care,
Sid
They Leave Me
Alone
To: Sidney Hagen
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:20 AM
Subject: permission Re: MMM article
Hi Sid,
The LDS Church leadership leaves me completely alone. I never ever (zilch) hear from them [above the
level of Stake President]. The repercussions come from the occasional members who read aghast that I
would say such and such a thing, and vow silently to never visit my website again. Sometimes (e.g.
once every other month) they pause long enough to tell me as much by email.
Most of the people on my mailing list, though are grateful, and the number of subscribers gradually
increases, despite the few who unsubscribe from time to time. No unsubscribers yet on this one.
Another repercussion is that as long as I write stuff like this, my chances of ever getting back in
the church remain close to nil; and yet, ironically, the feeling between myself and the church is
pretty affable at this point. I think my relationship to the Church could be compared to Robert
Kirby's, except I was radical enough that they booted me out in 1993. Since then, though, they can
see that though I publish introspective diatribe that might make people uncomfortable in their
chairs, I am not "anti-Mormon."
Sterling
From: [Mormon bishop and friend]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: (off topic): 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist,
John D. Lee
This
treatise on the Mountain Meadow massacre tastes like someone who feels spurned by the church and
now endeavors to pull the church down in an effort to somehow ease their own pain.
I disagree and felt a good deal of sorrow for the person responsible for this document. Mike
It's an attempt
to get honest with ourselves
To: [Mormon bishop and friend]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: (off topic): 911 Attack 144 Years Prior --
Mormon Terrorist, John D. Lee
From my point of view, this article is not borne of pain of rejection,
it is borne of a desire to see the whitewashing of whited sepulchers cease, and for a people to
get honest about themselves and their history. It is an R-rated piece in a PG-tolerant
culture; where "R" stands for "real" and PG stands for Pretty Glossed
over. Very few Mormons dare watch R-rated movies because of the blanket admonition by the
LDS Church to not do so; and yet I find some of the most depth in cinema is found in R-rated
films.
From: ****
To: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@greaterthings.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 8:30 AM
Subject: About John D. Lee
Sterling,
You are totally wrong about the Mormons being sanctioned by the Church to perpetrate the
Massacre. I would have been totally condemned by the officials of the church and you know it. Blood
atonement is a doctrine that the Lord himself sets out in the Old Testament and it had nothing to do
with killing a bunch of immigrant Missourians. It had to do with punishment of a murderer. That
article of yours is so much anti-Mormon tripe it is not worth analyzing. I thought you were trying
to reconcile with the Church?
Jonesy
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- MormonTerrorist, John D. Lee
Sterling,
A few years ago, I read a posting from True Ott who has journals from one of his grand parents who
was involved( or blamed) in the massacre.
Do you know True?
True Ott <tott@mountainwest.net>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior --MormonTerrorist, John D. Lee
If I remember correctly, it was the reason he left the church, That he was tired of the lies cover
ups etc. Apparently one of the members of the Wagon Train actually bragged that he had
shot Old Joe, and that they had the weapon with him. Thus the blood oath was acted upon against the
entire train since some of the murders were among the party. It was my understanding that
his Grandfather was framed to take the fall, for the entire church or something like that.
It has been a few years since I read it and can't be sure if that was even True's story.
I think it was though.
I just found a bunch of letters from Pablo, that I think came from your site, this may have been
where this came from. Sorry the old memory just isn't....
Gary
Here is one of them in a file, so let me know if you need the rest.
Sending under separate letter.
- [MORMON BLOOD ATONEMENT: Fact or
Fantasy?]
- [The Life and Confessions of the Late Mormon
Bishop, John D. Lee (Written by Himself)]
From: "BILL BRYANT" <scarab41@hotmail.com>
To: <Greater_Things-owner@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist, John D. Lee
Sterling,
Why are you so gullible and so quick to believe anything that is in left field?
Fraudulent engines, parowan prophets, lying prohpetess', and now some rogue mormon who writes a book
on the mountain meadows incident. I highly doubt the 'world' as you like to call it could have
given a damn about mountain meadows. Why can't you get off the soapbox? You have no
connection to mountain meadows. Do you really think the church would open itself up to the
many lawsuits that would follow if in fact 'the order came down from brigham'? Give me a
break.
From: "Leavitt, Jared M" <jared.m.leavitt@intel.com>
To: <Greater_Things-owner@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist, John D. Lee
Sterling,
How can you look directly at the sun and say it isn't shining? Your pride and anger have pushed you
far over the edge.
All you want in a prophet is someone who will make a bunch of predictions. Hey you don't even care
if they come true as demonstrated in past emails. I just can't wait for you to start pushing the
1-900-tell-me-your-fortune.
Jared Leavitt
Head in Sand
From: "Sterling D. Allan"
<sterlingda@greaterthings.com>
To: Jared
Subject: Re: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist, John D. Lee
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:06:00 -0600
It seems to me that you are the one with your head in the sand, denying the facts, not me.
From: "BILL BRYANT" <scarab41@hotmail.com>
To: <sterlingda@greaterthings.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist, John D. Lee
unless you're in the church's vault, all you've got is he said/she said...and those ain't real
facts. What is your point in this whole matter anyway? Why can't you drop it? I don't see a lot of
mormon descendents of people who were victims of the mobs crying for remuneration and admittance of
culpabiltiy on individuals who were involved. As far as i'm concerned this whole thing falls under
the stupidity of slavery reparations that certain people are trying to extract from the US taxpayer.
From: "Leavitt, Jared M" <jared.m.leavitt@intel.com>
To: Bill >;
<sterlingda@greaterthings.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist, John D. Lee
Bill, Sterling is just looking for anything to discredit the church. The question is, when did this
church fall (since Sterling believes it has)?
Second question, there are thousands of churches out there to attack. Why don't you spend some of
your time attacking them also?
Jared Leavitt
[See Sterling's response below]
[Responding to a request for permission to include name and email with posting of
comment.]
From: "Leavitt, Jared M" <jared.m.leavitt@intel.com>
To: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@greaterthings.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: permission: Fw: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist,
John D. Lee
sure, not sure why you want to show the whole world a negative email but go ahead.
Jared
Narrow-minded
Foolishness
From: "Sterling D. Allan"
<sterlingda@greaterthings.com>
To: "Leavitt, Jared M" <jared.m.leavitt@intel.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: permission: Fw: [Greater Things] 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist,
John D. Lee
Believe it or not, to most of the people who visit my site, you are the one that looks foolish, not
me.
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist, John D. Lee
Interesting article;
I agree that Mormons (and religious folks of all walks) need to call a spade a spade, fess up when
individually guilty (collective guilt? Where did that come from?). I take to task one statement,
though, that I need to repent for what a) my fore-fathers did or b) anyone who knowingly takes a
false stand on the Mountain Meadow's Massacre. I had no hand in the deaths of those people,
nor have I ever maintained our innocence. En fin, I am responsible for my own sins and no one
else's, just as no one else need answer for my pecadillos.
Off the record, and
speaking purely speculatively (I'm no historian but know enough that the written record is
subjective), I suspect that BOTH sides of the argument are highly peppered with propoganda and
that knowing the complete truth this long after the fact is impossible. Just because the evidence
seems to point to someone's guilt doesn't mean they are, and vice-versa.
I read the replies to
your article on your site...those critical of your views don't come across as being very
thoughtful or open to the possibilities that maybe, just maybe, humans made a mistake in the
zealous application of misinterpreted doctrine.
Feel free to post
this where you will...
Later,
Kevn
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: 911 Attack 144 Years Prior -- Mormon Terrorist, John D. Lee
Hi Kevn,
I enjoyed your thoughtful reply. As for collective guilt, here
is where I am coming from. If we know of a wrong among a body of which we are a part, but we
do nothing about it, then we are by association a part of the problem, not the solution. But
to the extent that we seek to bring truth to light, in the spirit of truth, introspection,
charity, and reconciliation, then we free ourselves from that guilt, and we are part of the
solution.
People often mistake a quest for being honest about the truth as being
"anti-Mormon," just because it paints a chapter or individual or group of individuals in
an unfavorable light. This comes when they ascribe to the fallacy of infallibility of the
Church and its leaders -- for if there are problems, then the Church is no longer true -- in their
paradigm. But I don't see it that way. For me, I view the church and the gospel as a
body of people striving for the truth, and that just as individuals have need of repentance, so
are there occasions when the body is need of repentance as well. Mistakes do not mean that
the Church is no longer "true." The more we acknowledge mistakes and work through
them, the more "true" we become.
Sterling
From: "Sidney Hagen"
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: permission Re: MMM article
Dear Sterling,
[...] I'm just curious, after you were excommunicated what
did you become doctrinally?
Hodgepodge
To: "Sidney Hagen"
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: permission Re: MMM article
Hi Sid,
Doctrinally, I'm a hodge podge of truth (and some deceptions) from all over, especially from
Mormonism, but not exclusively.
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:14 PM
Subject: Mountain Meadows
Shalom Sterling,
I think your commentary on Judith Freeman's book was very good. At times you share a very
wonderful perspective.
Have you ever thought of going to the RLDS seminary and becoming a minister in that
organization? I think you would do very well. I think you would be happily accepted
there, too, and could continue with your outreach on the Net as well.
Anyway, you have a good view and perspective overall. It is universalist, except for the
patriot stuff, which I think is off course because of Ezra Taft Benson's influence on you. In
the area of religion, however, you are usually right on!!!
Take care.
Dean.
From Carl
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:43 PM
Subject: Mormons
Dear Sterling,
You obviously get your information from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints who have been recycling the same lies about the church for the last 170 years plus
adding to them as they go along.
You will find that any church has members who do not follow the Lord or his prophets
and do great harm to the church and must be dealt with. After all would you only get your
information about Free Energy from those who
feel threatened by it.
To see what the church really believes and teaches go to http://www.mormon.org
to read the other side of the story.
Sincerly,
Carl ***
I'm An Exiled
Whistleblower, Not an Outsider Peeking in
(=Sterling's reply)
Inspiration
