Basking in the Baptism of
Fire in the Crucible of Life
From: Randall Shortridge <rds@acsu.buffalo.edu>
To: David's Outcasts <davids_outcasts@listbot.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Baptism of Fire/ Spirit
David's Outcasts - http://www.GreaterThings.com/OpenForum/Davids_Outcasts.htm
Brian. I will suggest that the fire spoken of (i.e. baptism) is where most of us are at this
very moment (i.e. we are soaking in it ;-)
Fire is the devourer... the great purifier. It burns out the dross from the gold.
When the scripts say about the Lord... that "the fan is in his hand", it refers to the
goldsmith holding a fan to the crucible where he fans the smoke and looks into the crucible to see
if the gold has become pure. When he sees his own reflection in the surface of the gold, he
knows that the fire has done its work and the gold has been purged (burned by fire) of all the
dross that is in it. In this fire-burning, only the dross is consumed, not the gold.
It is a parable about each of us. We are the gold in the crucible that is being burned (by
fire)... the baptism by fire. God is looking to see his reflection in us. The fan is
now in his hand.
This life we are in right now with its many trials is to burn the dross from us, leaving only
the gold. This life has a divine purpose. God indeed curseth the ground for our sake
(i.e. our benefit)... burns us with fire (Spirit)... pierces us with the nail... to purify the
dross from us. That is why Paul said that he joyed in tribulation. He may not care for
the trial, but the trial is what works the magic of the burning.
Baptism is symbolic of a new birth as well as a death. There is never a death without a
new birth awaiting on the other side.
Again, some think that there is some "warm-fuzzy" exhilaration feeling that comprises
the baptism of fire, but I think that there is much, much more to it... more than we are prone to
imagine. Unfortunately, many have had this feeling of exhilaration and erroneously think
that they have passed the baptism of fire. They think they are done with it, just as LDS who
are baptized with water think that they are done with baptism. They miss the larger picture.
When one passes through the "dark night of the soul"... where he questions all that
is... where he lies in the depths of sorrow... in the very jaws of hell itself... and then emerges
on the other side as a changed being... then he has passed the baptism of fire. Yes, it will
happen many times to some people, if the one (baptism) before has not done its work
sufficiently... if there was not a full immersion.
Unfortunately, I personally do know not a single person who has been fully immersed, albeit
many claim to have had the baptism of fire. I wonder of those who claim it (baptism of fire)
vocally, are the very ones who lack it. There has not been a full immersion.
Perhaps you with your sorrows over your lost love (Bev) are in this dark night of hell that
will work to purify and make all things holy (gold). One comes to realize that this darkness is
only temporary, like the cycles of the earth, there is always a new day awaiting to emerge
in dark of night. One must descend below all things to rise above all things and this is
what generates the fires of life (the purification to find eternal life).
May you (and each of us) endure it (this fire baptism) and emerge a holy man. It is
already in us (the gold). Just needs some fire to purify it of the dross.
Randall
Multiple
Baptisms by Fire in Valleys of Decision
From: Sterling D. Allan <sterlingda@greaterthings.com>
To: David's Outcasts <davids_outcasts@listbot.com>
Cc: SDA Friends list <SDA_friends@listbot.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:48 AM
Subject: {888} Baptism of Fire and Crucibles of Life
David's Outcasts - http://www.GreaterThings.com/OpenForum/Davids_Outcasts.htm
Randall,
You make some great points to which I would like to proffer some clarification.
The baptism of fire administered from heaven is just as real an event as the baptism of water
administered by man, though one might not be able to see it with the eyes.
I would caution against the mistake of overreacting to the hypocrites.
Yes, some people interpret a warm fuzzy feeling to be the baptism of fire and think they have
"arrived." Others actually receive the immersion of the Spirit -- the baptism of
fire -- and think they have "arrived." Such "born-again"
"Christians" can be extremely annoying to the senses of truth.
The doctrine of Christ teaches plainly that this baptism of fire, this receiving of a new
heart, a changed nature, is the GATE to the path of discipleship. It is the beginning of a
serious relationship or walk with God in which God dwells in you, flows through you, influences
your every word and deed. You are a new person.
Just passing through the gate alone is not sufficient. We are to press forward, feasting
upon the words of Christ, then as we show ourselves steadfast and immovable, clinging to that
rock, then our calling and election is made sure. And even then we can become sons of
perdition.
Yes, the refining fires of life have a way of shaping and molding us into new creatures.
However, they are not synonymous, doctrinally, with the baptism of fire, which marks the
transformation from natural, carnal man to godly.
The events themselves are not what make the purifying fire. A wicked, stiffnecked person
can pass through difficult events without them acting as a transforming agent. Rather they
choose only to become more callused in their recalcitrance toward God.
I think the point perhaps that you are trying to express here (and very well at that) is that
these crucibles of life can serve as a catalyst for the ongoing purifying power of the Spirit as
we yield our hearts to God. Any time we pass through something difficult and choose to
humble ourselves rather than let ego control us into being stubborn, then the Spirit can work its
miracles in our life to give us a new outlook, a new heart, a new paradigm.
So in this regard, though there may be the one-time transformational event marking the initial
departure from the world and change into a godly walk, that the subsequent landmark shaping events
in our life could likewise be considered baptisms of fire. And in this sense, what you say
is very fitting.
Just as multiple baptisms was a practice of the early Church, and the scriptures give
validation to this concept, so likewise come multiple baptisms by fire through the various valleys
of decision through which we pass.
Sterling
Becoming
the Word made Flesh
From: RokOfOrion@aol.com
<RokOfOrion@aol.com>
To: davids_outcasts@listbot.com <davids_outcasts@listbot.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Baptism of Fire/ Spirit
David's Outcasts - http://www.GreaterThings.com/OpenForum/Davids_Outcasts.htm
After reading some of Lynn's response
to the present query I feel inadequate but here is my input. Pentecostal people (I came that way)
make the most of the least. like the tongue of the shoe. However, there is no more unruly a member
of the body than the tongue. If the Spirit can show you that he-she can control your tongue that
ought to be something like evidence written in cement. To you that have never "felt'"
the spirit on your body you will always wonder about it but the greater gifts do not have physical
manifestations so who wants to be the judge of another wether he be in the Spirit or not? I had
some undeniable witnesses of the spirit in my body 25 years ago and still have today, but the
testimony of the Spirit I treasure most in my life is my great, undying, seemingly insatiable
desire for God and for you, his body. To me, without offence to anyone, the era of the holy Spirit
as we have known it, is over. The kingdom is at hand. There will still be manifestations, even
greater, but you and I will no longer see ourselves as containers or even channels of the Holy
Spirit, we are becoming and have become the Word made Flesh. Oneness and Fullness and Glory are on
the agenda for today and tomorrow. Rokus
Your
Spirit One with Holy Spirit
From: hawkiye <hawkiye@uswest.net>
To: David's Outcasts <davids_outcasts@listbot.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Baptism of Fire/ Spirit
David's Outcasts - http://www.GreaterThings.com/OpenForum/Davids_Outcasts.htm
Rokus,
I like this.. I would add if the spirit that dwells within you is not holy then what is it? I
submit the Holy Spirit is you it is the fabric of your being its what your made of. When we
embrace the carnal we deny the very fabric of our beings which is charity or the Holy Ghost which
as Moroni said is the only thing that does not fail, and this is what constistutes sin, denying
our true selves which is charity. We are charitable beings and I am not talking about just doing
good deeds charity, I am talking of being like Christ seeing and knowing all things. This is what
the Garment symbolized, your holy spirit. That is why it is was worn underneath the cloths.
Becoming one with Christ is realizing who you are or returning to the former Glory you had before
but with new experience from this life which consitutes progression.
You are correct in that the era of looking for a seprate Spirit outside of oneself is over.
The spirit is within as is the entire kingdom of God. Its the same idol woprship of outward things
and I agree its time to set it aside. Perhaps the feeling described of feeling the spirit burn are
just times of more deeper self realization until the perfect day? But we go back to the carnal
comfort we are used to all to easily. The Baptism of Fire is when the fire or light within you is
fully magnified and not hidden on the inside anymore or denied. Perhaps this is what is meant
by let your light so shine?
This is when you discard the outward symbolism such as garments and ordinaces etc. becuase you are
the living embodiement of all they symbolized. Perhaps this is what Joseph meant when he said he
could not tell them who he really was and that brethren on the stand would kill him. Some have
taken this to mean Joseph was the Holy Ghost but we are all the Holy Ghost. If the Spirit of God
does not dwell in temples mand of mens hands then what temple does he dwell in? And if we are the
Temples of God then who dwells in them now?
When LDS try to admionish me to get back and attend the temple I tell them I am the temple, I am
in the temple 24-7 what need have I to go to fake or token temple?
Love Blayne
Wending
Through the Mist of Darkness
From: Dennis Ure <uredennis@hotmail.com>
To: davids_outcasts@listbot.com <davids_outcasts@listbot.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: {888} Fw: Baptism of Fire/ Spirit
David's Outcasts - http://www.GreaterThings.com/OpenForum/Davids_Outcasts.htm
Hi, My name is Dennis Ure and I've just tuned in to David's Outcasts about a week ago. I may have
somewhat of a little insight into baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost. I'm 57 yrs old, have 8
children and teach middle school. One must be baptized by fire to teach middle school. I wrote the
following this last Sunday. I hope you enjoy? Ure's Truly Dennis
FINALLY I HAVE PEACE!
By Dennis Ure
At the age of 50, the year 1992, I came unto Christ and was baptized by Fire and the Holy
Ghost. It happened just like Enos in the Book of Mormon. The only difference was, it happened in
my bedroom. The next morning, The Holy Ghost taught me the Doctrine of Christ, taken from 3 N
11:31-41 and that any one who establishes anything more or less than that as His doctrine comes of
evil.
On that day, I received a remission of my sins and all my guilt was swept away. Like Enos I
marveled at how it was done. On that day I stepped through the gate and onto the straight and
narrow path which leads to Eternal life. The words of Nephi in 2 N 31:17-21 says that we enter
through the gate and onto the path by baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost and have all our sins
removed. I finally got on the path and I was happy.
About a year later I entered the mist of darkness, through which, according to Lehi's vision of
the tree of life, everyone on the path must pass. The mist of darkness is the temptations of the
devil which blindeth the eyes and hardeneth the heart, 2 N 12:17. To me the mist represented
confusion. I was bombarded with all manner of conflicting doctrines within and outside the church.
The doctrine that was the hardest for me to overcome and deal with was, "Why do we need so
much other stuff and why aren't our leaders teaching the pure doctrine of Christ? Why are they
giving us so much other stuff?" In 3 N 11:31-41, The Doctrine of Christ is; we all must
repent, come unto Christ and become baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost. As we become baptized
by fire and the Holy Ghost, all our sins are removed and we become as little children. Then why
aren't our leaders hammering this doctrine into our heads. Why are they continually preaching
other doctrines, such as baptism for the dead, temple work, tithing, building beautiful buildings,
education, making a good living, 100s of meetings, follow the brethren, follow the prophet
(shouldn't we take the holy spirit for our guide?) and the list goes on. I've literally spend the
last 5 years in this mist of darkness wondering what is the truth and how I was going to handle
all these contradictions and get out of the mist and to the tree of life. Suddenly, yesterday and
today, Oct 30 and 31, 1999, The Lord has, at least for the time being, reveled His will concerning
me. I've been reading hundreds of articles by church leaders and people outside the church, I read
two articles this last week, one by Robert Millett, BYU's institute leader, and one by Max
Skousen, excommunicated member of the LDS church.
Robert Millett said there are two doctrines of the Church; The Doctrine of Christ in 3 N 11 and
the complete Gospel Doctrines which contain the Doctrine of Christ. I looked up doctrine in
Webster's dictionary and it says "teachings of Christ". Into my mind came this
impression, very clear and precise, "there should be no question about the Doctrine of
Christ. On all the rest of the teachings, let the Holy Spirit be thy guide as it states in the
Doctrine and Covenants 45:55-57 and in Moroni 10:4-5. Become a peaceful humble follower of Jesus
Christ, Moroni 7:3 and 2 N 28:14-15.
Max Skousen writes about peaceful members. Just what is a peaceful and humble follower of
Christ? When Christ appeared to the Nephites on the American Continent, He called Nephi up to Him
whereupon Nephi knelled down and kissed His feet. Christ then gave Nephi power to Baptize, then
gave him the words to use. The very next thing He told the people was to not contend over His
doctrine 3 N 11:28-30. A peaceful follower is someone who will not contend over anything. Let
other people have their opinions about doctrines, teachings, prophecies, ways, means, buildings,
education, whatever. We need to take the Holy Spirit for your guide and don't believe everything
that comes out of other people's mouths, whether they be Sunday School teachers, Elders Quorum
leaders, Bishops, Stake Presidents, 70's, Apostles, yes and even the prophet. "TAKE THE HOLY
SPIRIT FOR YOUR GUIDE" and cease to cause contention. That is my answer and I believe it came
directly from the Lord Himself.
The following is an example of what happened in my mist of darkness. In the Book of Mormon,
Mormon himself talks about the last days and the condition of ALL the churches in the last days.
He starts in Mormon 8 verse 22 and blasts all the churches in the last days, even the holy church
of God verse 38, "...why have ye polluted the holy church of God?...". Nephi does the
same thing in 2 N 28 starting on verse 12 through to the end. Even God put the church under
condemnation in D&C 84:49-59. He put all the churches under condemnation because the members
would not come unto Christ.
You mean to tell me that I belonged to a condemned church? If the LDS church was condemned
along with the rest, then who held the true priesthood which is the authority to baptize, which is
a prerequisite to Come unto Christ? Finally, after months of wondering, into my mind came the
answer. Zacharias, John the Baptist's father, held the Aaronic priesthood. The Jewish religion,
which he belonged to was indeed started by Christ clear back at the time of Moses. At the time of
Jesus' and John's birth, it was totally polluted with all manor of false doctrines. Yet Zacharias
held the priesthood and he was a righteous holder of it even though his church wasn't.
Any church is just an organization which does not function in and of itself. The members
function righteously or wickedly. If the members are righteous then their priesthood functions, if
they do not then their priesthood doesn't. It's as simple as that. In the last days there is going
to be a great division among the people. The wicked He will destroy and His people He will spare 2
N 30:10. I crossed referenced that verse with DC 101:95 which says, "That I may proceed to
bring to pass my act, my strange act, and perform my work, my strange work, that men may discern
between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God." I assume the strange act and work is
in fact that division. If so then there must be a way to discern between the wicked and righteous.
DC 84:49-53 states that the whole world lieth in sin. The world is under the bondage of sin
because they "Come not Unto Me". And by this you may know the righteous from the
wicked.... Those who do not come unto Christ, He classifies a wicked. Then He put the whole church
under condemnation because they Come Not Unto Him.
Instead of spending so much time looking for the Davidic King, maybe we should first of all
come unto Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit, then help others do the same. These are
the types of things that bothered me as I was in the mist of darkness. I think or I should say I
hope I'm getting out of the mist.
All things are right where they are supposed to be, moving right along right on schedule. Paul
in Colossians 1:16-29 says that Christ created ALL things, even thrones, dominions, or
principalities or powers. If that's true, and I'm sure it is, then what in the world am I worried
about? He created the Mormon, Catholic, Protestant, Communist, socialist and all dominions.
Apparently, this is the way He wants it so this is the way it is. Therefore, what can I do about
anything?
Martin Harris was told by the Lord Himself of what he should do the rest of his life in D&C
19:31-32, "31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith
on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost. 32 Behold,
this is a great and the last commandment which I shall give unto you concerning this matter; for
this shall suffice for thy daily walk, even unto the end of thy life. In the D&C it states
that what I say unto one, I say unto all.
Is this scripture the fullness of the Gospel of Christ or what? This is the job we should be
doing, whether we are in the church or not. Christ changes us, the church doesn't change us. The
LDS church or any church should have only one focus in mind and that is to help us Come unto
Christ and get our sins forgiven by being baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost. After that it's
up to us to put Christ completely into our lives. As we understand this simple doctrine, and we
understand that He created all things, we quit judging others and things and churches and leaders.
Christ wants it this way or it wouldn't be this way. And who am I to judge Him. When I judge
others, I am judging Him and His works. So I had better watch out. If I don't want to be judged
then I had better not judge.
The meat of His Gospel is simple; Come unto Him. The milk of the Gospel is complicated; laws,
laws, laws, laws. As we realize the simplicity of the plan of life, we can go out and enjoy our
lives as they are meant to be enjoyed. These last few days I have really enjoyed my life because
it has become so simple.
I love Christ. If He doesn't reach down His hand to me and pull me up, then I haven't got a
chance. I've turned over my life to Him and from now on I'm going to let the Holy spirit be my
guide. He might tell me something different to do than you, and that's good. He may let me make a
mistake or do what's right and that's good.
In closing, DC 20:9 says that the fullness of the Gospel is contained in the BM. I believe it
is contained in 3N11:31-41, also 3N9:20, also 3N12:1-2, also 3N12:10-20 and 2N31 the whole chapter
and in DC10:67-70. Of course the key is How do we come unto Christ? The answer is found in 3N9:20,
with a broken heart and contrite spirit.
Ure's Truly
Dennis Ure
From: D.O.O.R <door@camasnet.com>
To: David's Outcasts <davids_outcasts@listbot.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: {888} Fw: Baptism of Fire/ Spirit
David's Outcasts - http://www.GreaterThings.com/OpenForum/Davids_Outcasts.htm
By the equation of your message I get:
Contention = conditional love
non-Contention = un-conditional love (love your enemy)
.......Pablo
